Early Italian Warfare

[Mark G]

Thanks Duncan,

We should update that thread on recommended readings on...

[aligern]

Patrick, it all depends upon the closeness of your close order.
If we imagine the classic Greek aspis and doru phalanx as being such that the men can obtain protection from the shield of the man to their right and that the back ranks  are literally pushing their aspides into the backs of the men in front than that is close, perhaps dense order. If the men are standing with their shields flat to the front with a space between each man in which he can fence around a bit then that is close order, or loose order if the first order is close.

I see Etruscans normally in an order that enables them to move around, but still with shield rims  within a few inches of each other. However, I wouldn't preclude Greeks operating in a looser order or Etruscans closer.

The Ineditum Vaticanum cite which Ross Cowan dismisses has the Romans adopting Etruscan methods in order to defeat them. That would make Roman Republican deployment like Etruscan deployment!!  That would make there Etruscans a non classic phalanx?

I'd also like to draw attention to the other 'classes' on the Certosa situla.  Etruscan social structure of lords and dependents sounds apt for an army that has lords in Greek imported gear and followers in Italian traditional kit with scuta. That rather sits well with there being lots of Etruscans and cohort like formations fits with the point that Jim made about multiple standards.
If we could look at spear heads then could we tell a doru head from an longche point?

Roy

[Duncan Head]

If we imagine the classic Greek asps and dour phalanx

The predictive text gets better and better - these are the serious-looking guys with snakes on their shields, I presume?

[Duncan Head]

I'd also like to draw attention to the other 'classes' on the Certosa situla.  Etruscan social structure of lords and dependents sounds apt for an army that has lords in Greek imported gear and followers in Italian traditional kit with scuta. That rather sits well with there being lots of Etruscans and cohort like formations fits with the point that Jim made about multiple standards.

The problem with the situla evidence is that the Certosa situla is surely Venetic, not Etruscan. (See eg this.}When we do see scuta in Po Valley Etruscan art, we may be looking at influences from neighbours or local subjects that are not felt in metropolitan Etruria. While there are scuta in Etrurian homeland art, they don't seem to be all that numerous and may not fit into the military system in the same way that the Certosa situla implies.

[aligern]

Thank you for pointing that out Duncan :-)

Corrected I hope.

[Erpingham]

We should perhaps note that the text says situla art starts in Etruria and moves north.  7th century examples could easily represent Etruscan motifs and practices, with the connection weakening through time.

It does though raise a puzzle.  Most of our square scutum "Etruscans" come from situla art.  We assume this shield is an early indigenous Italian peninsular style.  What if it is a northern style?  When we get later Etruscan carvings and art of scuta, lots seem to be Celtic style ovals, not rounded edged rectangles.  Has contact with Celts introduced a new long shield type?  It certainly seems to have affected helmet design.  Did they adopt mail, like the Romans?

[Patrick Waterson]

It may also be worth considering that we seem to have had Etruscans and Etruscans, i.e. some of the city-states may have been less hoplite-oriented than others.  My own feeling is that unless we keep dates and cities of origin clearly in mind when considering Etruscan artwork, we shall simply end up confusing ourselves.

I'm not sure we really know how close an order the Egyptians usually operated in.

Anyone with Breasted's History of Egypt (2nd Edition) can look at Fig 104 facing page 234 for an answer to this.  The relief depicts some of Hatshepsut's escort, and they are definitely in close formation (3' or less per man).  Owners of Velikovsky's Ramses II and his Time can flip through the plates therein, notably Champollion's Plate 33 and Kuentz's Egyptian soldiery from his La Bataille de Kadesh.  Champollions's is a drawing but Kuentz' is a photograph.  Champollion's illustration depicts Egyptian infantry with spears and large shields while Kuentz's shows them with axes and large shields; both show the Egyptian infantry in unmistakeable close formation of the 3' (or less) per man variety.  I am sure there are other volumes with depictions of relevant reliefs; the internet however seems devoid of them, at least as far as my search engines are concerned.

[andrew881runner]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p7YEptNfFiA

could this represent more or less a hoplite battle?

[Justin Swanton]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p7YEptNfFiA

could this represent more or less a hoplite battle?

Very nicely done, Andrew. I suspect that the othismos was done with more organised files, i.e. the men in the rear ranks were directly lined up behind the hoplite in the front and pushed together with him.

It makes sense that the two armies might have stood apart a couple of feet whilst sparring with spears, at least some of the time.

How did you make the movie? I have RTW2 but still have to figure out how to get a video like that out of it.

[Patrick Waterson]

Here is Xenophon's account of a hoplite battle (in 394 BC). 

Now as the opposing armies were coming together, there was deep silence for a time in both lines; but when they were distant from one another about a stadium, the Thebans raised the war-cry and rushed to close quarters on the run. When, however, the distance between the armies was still about three plethra, the troops whom Herippidas commanded, and with them the Ionians, Aeolians, and Hellespontines, ran forth in their turn from the phalanx of Agesilaus, and the whole mass joined in the charge and, when they came within spear thrust, put to flight the force in their front. As for the Argives, they did not await the attack of the forces of Agesilaus, but fled to Mount Helicon. [18] Thereupon some of the mercenaries were already garlanding Agesilaus, when a man brought him word that the Thebans had cut their way through the Orchomenians and were in among the baggage train. And he immediately wheeled his phalanx and led the advance against them; but the Thebans on their side, when they saw that their allies had taken refuge at Mount Helicon, wishing to break through to join their own friends, massed themselves together and came on stoutly. [19]

At this point one may unquestionably call Agesilaus courageous; at least he certainly did not choose the safest course. For while he might have let the men pass by who were trying to break through and then have followed them and overcome those in the rear, he did not do this, but crashed against the Thebans front to front; and setting shields against shields they shoved, fought, killed, and were killed. Finally, some of the Thebans broke through and reached Mount Helicon, but many were killed while making their way thither.

I do admire the video (really good work, Andrew), but I think the hoplites need to crash and shove against each other rather than stand and thrust their spears into empty air - if it is possible to make this happen with RTW2.  (If not, just ignore my comments. )

[Erpingham]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p7YEptNfFiA

could this represent more or less a hoplite battle?

Impressive Andrew.  I liked the music - early medieval?  Very atmospheric.  I think I'd lose the GI Joe shouting, though.  I know you're trying to show that a lot of orders are flying about, but I found it a bit distracting.  Incidentally, did Spartans sing the paean as they advanced?

As to the fighting, perhaps a few less casualties in the front ranks?  Less dramatic but perhaps a better recreation.  I'm sure you are working on the rout.  It would be good to see some throwing away of shields and perhaps some fighting clumps backing off the field?

[andrew881runner]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p7YEptNfFiA

could this represent more or less a hoplite battle?

Very nicely done, Andrew. I suspect that the othismos was done with more organised files, i.e. the men in the rear ranks were directly lined up behind the hoplite in the front and pushed together with him.

It makes sense that the two armies might have stood apart a couple of feet whilst sparring with spears, at least some of the time.

How did you make the movie? I have RTW2 but still have to figure out how to get a video like that out of it.

if you have r2tw you can add me on steam, my nickname is Drtruman. I used some mods to recreate that effect but playing against a player I could make better things. For example a proper charge from both sides . Maybe a better othysmos. [emoji6] Add me, I only need one fast battle so I will put the replay after and record.
We could try to remake some etruscan/early manipular formations too.

[andrew881runner]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p7YEptNfFiA

could this represent more or less a hoplite battle?

Impressive Andrew.  I liked the music - early medieval?  Very atmospheric.  I think I'd lose the GI Joe shouting, though.  I know you're trying to show that a lot of orders are flying about, but I found it a bit distracting.  Incidentally, did Spartans sing the paean as they advanced?

As to the fighting, perhaps a few less casualties in the front ranks?  Less dramatic but perhaps a better recreation.  I'm sure you are working on the rout.  It would be good to see some throwing away of shields and perhaps some fighting clumps backing off the field?

Spartans played pyrrhic songs during march but I have no idea why I only remembered it after making the video. For the video I have used some real ancient greek music but it is not a proper war song.  I was wondering if moder greek  music called Pyrrich (you can find it on YouTube under this name) was the same played by Spartans in the March because the rhythm seems to me a bit to fast.
As for the animations of throwing away Shields, it would be cool and realistic but I am not able to change animations... I would need to recruit some good programmer. There are few guys in total war center who are able to do that, I am sure, but do not on request. Maybe if you pay? [emoji1]  [emoji6]

[Duncan Head]

I'm not sure we really know how close an order the Egyptians usually operated in.

Anyone with Breasted's History of Egypt (2nd Edition) can look at Fig 104 facing page 234 for an answer to this.  The relief depicts some of Hatshepsut's escort, and they are definitely in close formation (3' or less per man).

This one - also here?  They certainly seem to be marching in pretty close formation, but how this relates to combat styles is less clear.

As for Qadesh, this one has shielded Egyptian infantry at lower left, and there's this. But the same reservation applies.

[Patrick Waterson]

This one - also here?  They certainly seem to be marching in pretty close formation, but how this relates to combat styles is less clear.

Yes, that is the one.  I am assuming (based on what other armies seem to do) that marchers will not be in a closer formation than troops in combat, particularly when considering orderly types like Egyptians.

As for Qadesh, this one has shielded Egyptian infantry at lower left,

And not just Egyptians: those round-shield troops look interesting, though at this resolution it is hard to make out relevant details.  As there does seem to be fighting going on, might it be valid to surmise that the infantry would be shown in battle formation, or at least battle closeness?

and there's this. But the same reservation applies.

Yes, they do look like a close, large-shield formation: almost a phalanx (note the 'almost'  ).  Again, do we know of any cultures which marched in tighter formations than those in which they fought?