Could the Persian Empire logistically support an army several million strong?

[Erpingham]

While I do sympathise with Jim, I think we must credit Justin with trying to grapple with the geography and the numbers, rather than dismiss them. 

I agree with Jim we are all armchair soldiers in this but perhaps the problem is partially how we approach that.  Do we assume soldiers of the past had it right - that absolutely everything on campaign will be sub-optimal and everything will take longer, be harder and more confused than expected (remember SNAFU starts with the words Situation Normal).  Or do we proceed with sunny optimism that it will all be OK not just today but all the other days? 

While Jim has raised it in something of an exasperated tone, I do think the "sources first" advocates perhaps need to sort out the apparent contradictions the model of the Persian army is generating.  As a force, the current model requires it to be extremely efficient, with discipline among its camp followers that many later regular armies would envy for their soldiers.  Its march and camp discipline are greatly in advance of the Romans.  Is this high degree of regularity and discipline consistent with other sources or even with Herodotus himself?  Why would such a force need to be driven forward with whips?  Does their battlefield performance indicate great discipline and drill?

[Jim Webster]

Could I just check how the army is carrying its non-food supplies e.g. the large numbers of arrows it needs?  Are we assuming that these are being carried by the camp followers (disregarding those on special duties)?

strangely enough this is the sort of thing I'm happy to see stockpiled years in advance. At least they don't go off too badly over three or four years.
I'd suggest that footwear, miscellaneous leather straps and suchlike would also be good things to have in the stockpiles because they'd all wear out

[Prufrock]

I wonder if Justin and Patrick aren't missing a trick. In Thrace, the Persian land forces split into three groups. Do they do that after the break at Therma, too? Herodotus doesn't say, but later commentators think they probably did. If so, it would a) ease congestion on the march, b) allow more fruitful foraging and c) allow targeted use of pack animals, as the coastal division can be supplied more readily by sea. If they cross into Thessaly using three passes rather than one, go past Lamia Larissa and proceed down towards Thermopylae, still in their divisions, they can assemble there over four days, rest, organise, and then attack at Thermopylae. Certainly, moving in three columns is a lot more efficient than moving in one giant one.

Now, I don't agree that there could have be 3.5M plus people on the march (as if it wasn't obvious already!), but it was clearly a very big army, and after this discussion I'm prepared to raise my estimate of how big the army was to something larger than I would have previously accepted, and having them split into divisions would reduce my concerns about choke points and gathering / delivering supplies.

Of course, three divisions into Thessaly doesn't really help with the water issues and choke points on the Gallipoli peninsular that Maurice addresses (this I think really does effectively limit the size of the army to something in the six figure range rather than the sevens, even if how Maurice arrived at the 40,000 gallons of water per day figure for the Scamander is a bit of a mystery), but does mean that it's easier to see how a really large army could function in Greece itself.

[Erpingham]

Could I just check how the army is carrying its non-food supplies e.g. the large numbers of arrows it needs?  Are we assuming that these are being carried by the camp followers (disregarding those on special duties)?

strangely enough this is the sort of thing I'm happy to see stockpiled years in advance. At least they don't go off too badly over three or four years.
I'd suggest that footwear, miscellaneous leather straps and suchlike would also be good things to have in the stockpiles because they'd all wear out

Agreed, I don't think the stockpiling of these is an issue.  But, because of my HYW interests, I tend to think about arrow supplies   An archer-based tactical system needs lots of arrows.  They are not massively heavy but they are rather bulky.  You could pile them on camp followers attached to units to lug about, or you could put them in the baggage.  Presumably the camp followers also carry all the pots and pans and the quern stones too  (you could probably get away with one of those between every two or three men).

[aligern]

Ah, but in such a multi national enterprise you will be dealing with five or so different types of arrows, some of which have to be transported hundreds of miles to the initial assembly point  because they are not generic items like .303 cartridges. Shoes are the same...all different by contingent and nit a popular decision to be giving some Persians  Arab sandals.
Roy

[Erpingham]

Ah, but in such a multi national enterprise you will be dealing with five or so different types of arrows, some of which have to be transported hundreds of miles to the initial assembly point  because they are not generic items like .303 cartridges. Shoes are the same...all different by contingent and nit a popular decision to be giving some Persians  Arab sandals.
Roy

Good point.  Although it can be suggested that the army is extremely regular, Herodotus does describe contingents as differently equipped.

[Flaminpig0]

Ah, but in such a multi national enterprise you will be dealing with five or so different types of arrows, some of which have to be transported hundreds of miles to the initial assembly point  because they are not generic items like .303 cartridges. Shoes are the same...all different by contingent and nit a popular decision to be giving some Persians  Arab sandals.
Roy

It also once again implies a really well organised and culturally aware ministry, in thiscase dedicated to arms and equipment procurement- imagine a civil servant in the Persian capital having a spec for Ethiopian Arrows.

[Erpingham]

Ah, but in such a multi national enterprise you will be dealing with five or so different types of arrows, some of which have to be transported hundreds of miles to the initial assembly point  because they are not generic items like .303 cartridges. Shoes are the same...all different by contingent and nit a popular decision to be giving some Persians  Arab sandals.
Roy

It also once again implies a really well organised and culturally aware ministry, in thiscase dedicated to arms and equipment procurement- imagine a civil servant in the Persian capital having a spec for Ethiopian Arrows.

I suspect a degree of subsidiarity in this issue .  So, the invites would have said "Bring weapons, we'll provide the eats".

[Flaminpig0]

Ah, but in such a multi national enterprise you will be dealing with five or so different types of arrows, some of which have to be transported hundreds of miles to the initial assembly point  because they are not generic items like .303 cartridges. Shoes are the same...all different by contingent and nit a popular decision to be giving some Persians  Arab sandals.
Roy

It also once again implies a really well organised and culturally aware ministry, in thiscase dedicated to arms and equipment procurement- imagine a civil servant in the Persian capital having a spec for Ethiopian Arrows.

I suspect a degree of subsidiarity in this issue .  So, the invites would have said "Bring weapons, we'll provide the eats".

So, the invites would have said "Bring weapons, we'll provide the eats, expect to be whipped- a lot."

[Justin Swanton]

I dispute Gallipoli. I mapped out a route that allows for a wide column to move up the peninsula. Shall I post photos?

no, could we have a contour map please, they're far easy to read than photos

Jim

Here it is. A rather large pdf file. Once you open it you need to zoom in. Contours are at 20m intervals. I see only one potential chokepoint at a now-existing dam. I've included a photo to give an idea of how difficult the chokepoint is. It doesn't seem that difficult.

You were talking about having to have these men advance on a 600m  front, 300 men abreast.
Given that a lot of the valleys, from crest to crest, are less that 2km wide, I see rather more choke points than you do I'm afraid. Even after checking it on google maps with the satellite view it doesn't look any better

This is where the contours matter. Those valleys have slopes at angles of 1 in 10 or less - they can easily be walked along. The army needs a width of about 600m only, not 2000m.

have you ever marched a column 300 men wide when the column was both climbing AND the men were were marching along a slope?
What speed did they manage?
I've done enough fell walking to know that on the sort of rough terrain you see on the satellite image you're going to have a mob because nobody will be able to keep in ranks for more than a few yards

Have you any examples of armies marching through hill country in columns 300 men across? For days

I've done enough hiking to know that a 1 in 10 slope is not a problem to walk along provided:

a) it isn't covered with difficult vegetation

b) it isn't broken ground - lots of steep up-and-down that averages out at 1 in 10 but in reality is much more than that.

For both of the above, 4 year's preparation of the ground would suffice to remove most obstacles from otherwise doable terrain.

Here's a diagram showing men on a 1 in 10 slope and each with 2 yards lateral space. They obviously don't have to march in tidy ranks and files, just keep a reasonable distance apart. What problem does this pose for the walkers?



Here is a photo of the valley leading inland from the Bosphorus crossing. Not particularly formidable slopes. Grazing doesn't look too bad either. 

[Erpingham]

Grazing doesn't look too bad either. 

I suspect that is a South African perspective.  A Northern Irishman would think he was looking at a desert.

[RichT]

I suspect a degree of subsidiarity in this issue .  So, the invites would have said "Bring weapons, we'll provide the eats".

So, the invites would have said "Bring weapons, we'll provide the eats, expect to be whipped- a lot."

I've been to parties like that.

[Flaminpig0]

I suspect a degree of subsidiarity in this issue .  So, the invites would have said "Bring weapons, we'll provide the eats".

So, the invites would have said "Bring weapons, we'll provide the eats, expect to be whipped- a lot."

I've been to parties like that.

One would have thought that the 'whip-men' would have suffered a great deal of  friendly fire incidents.

[Jim Webster]

Here's a diagram showing men on a 1 in 10 slope and each with 2 yards lateral space. They obviously don't have to march in tidy ranks and files, just keep a reasonable distance apart. What problem does this pose to the walkers?

Firstly the photo
This is the sort of area you're expecting people to cut forage from remember. So I think carefully studying this picture will tell you a great deal about just how big an area you'll really need. Look at the grass length and sparsity

Secondly if you want to believe that you can march men three hundred abreast through  Gallipoli then I'm not even going to try to convince you otherwise.
But please, provide one example from ancient literature of an army than advanced in a column 300 men abreast? Come on, just one

[Justin Swanton]

Grazing doesn't look too bad either. 

I suspect that is a South African perspective.  A Northern Irishman would think he was looking at a desert.

The wild horses of the Namib would have loved it.