The camel paradox again

[Erpingham]

Interestingly, the Diodorus/Ctesias story we discussed earlier also had camel riders with swords four cubits long.

[RichT]

Just long enough to reach the ground, presumably. Like the correct length for a man's legs.

[Erpingham]

Just long enough to reach the ground, presumably. Like the correct length for a man's legs.

Indeed.  One might, however, wonder at this weapon.  How was it used?  Was it used like a lance ( I can't imagine effectively swinging a sword 4 cubits long from animal back )?  Was it constructed with a long handle like a falx or rhomphaia?

P.S. Apologies for the changes and additions but I am struggling to express what I'm getting at.

[RichT]

Yes it's hard to imagine the purpose of such a weapon. Four cubits is about 1.8 m so this is a mighty sword. Why not just use a spear? Are Arabs noted for their use of enormous swords at other times?

Some possibilities:
- Livy or Appian or their shared source had read Ctesias, thought camels, thought four cubits swords, added some colour to their account. Ctesias' account is just a fantasy ('inspired by true events' as they say in the movies). Four cubit swords never existed. Quite possible if not entirely satisfactory.
- a 1.8 m sword really is useful when on camelback, or is a traditional weapon among camel users, or is used in some way we armchair camel speculators can't imagine. Also quite possible if not entirely satisfactory.
- 'sword' in the sources is used loosely of some other weapon - as you say, maybe like a falx or rhomphaia, a blade on a stick, which is sort of the obvious thing to do to increase reach from camelback. This gets my vote, slightly reluctantly.

[Duncan Head]

Some possibilities:
- Livy or Appian or their shared source had read Ctesias, thought camels, thought four cubits swords, added some colour to their account.

- Antiochos III's quartermaster had read Ctesias, knew the boss had hired some camels, and thought four-cubit swords sounded really neat.

[Andreas Johansson]

If we're speculating wildly, here's a couple more possibilities:

- the original source said something like "long swords to reach down", which someone interpreted to mean "reach the ground" (4 cubits is roughly the shoulder height of a dromedary), but what was actually meant was to reach men on foot.
- The number or unit got garbled in transmission - it was originally 2 cubits, or 4 feet, or something.

Both work best if Appian and Livy are dependent on Ctesias, of course.

ETA: On a completely different tack, extremely long swords would be less odd in the hands of footmen, so perhaps they tell us that these camel men did expect to dismount to fight.

[Erpingham]

Leaving aside exactly what was meant, we appear to have mounted archers equipped with anti-infantry weapons.  They seem neither equipped for, nor specially deployed as, a cavalry killer, unless their deployment alongside scythed chariots suggests they are part of some (unsuccessful) disruption operation.

[RichT]

I guess there are also at least two possibilities for Seleucid recruitment:

1: The army list approach: "We're going to need some camels to stink out the Roman cavalry and tilt the odds in our favour a bit, the way Xenophon says Cyrus did. Where can we get camels from? Ah, the Arabs can provide them. Then let's give them enormous swords like Ctesias says camel riders should have."

2. The big empire approach: "Big battle coming up with the Romans - tell all the subject peoples to send their finest to take part." Three months later - "Right, Arab contingent coming in. WTF are those? Camels? WTF will we do with 500 camels? And WTF are those things they're carrying? OK, put them in advance of the left somewhere, they can't do any harm there".

It's interesting that at Magnesia the cavalry frightened the camels. Going back to games, that's the trouble with the camels +1 v. cavalry way of doing things, it gives the player the sort of hard information no real general ever had. In the context of a game that's fair enough of course.

[Patrick Waterson]

Would the camel riders have been equipped by the Seleucid monarch or would they have brought their own?  I have a hard time imagining them turning up thinking, "Oh, His Majesty will provide us with such lucky dip weapons as he thinks fit," rather than, "I'm bringing my favourite bow and sword, which I am well practised with and accustomed to using."

So maybe they did have four-cubit swords; it did not do them any good in the circumstances, but they had been expecting a different set of circumstances, namely that they follow or accompany scythed chariots in a victorious charge whcih breaks up the Pergamene cavalry and then rides down their supporting light infantry.  A  six-foot sword has considerable potential as a smiter of routing or simply disordered opponents, and saves on javelins, particularly if the launch platform is a bit bumpy.

Presumably care would have to be taken not to behead one's own camel.

[Erpingham]

Presumably care would have to be taken not to behead one's own camel.

T.E. Lawrence once accidentally shot his camel in the head in a charge (the one dramatised in the film, but they missed that be out).

[Jim Webster]

Would the camel riders have been equipped by the Seleucid monarch or would they have brought their own?  I have a hard time imagining them turning up thinking, "Oh, His Majesty will provide us with such lucky dip weapons as he thinks fit," rather than, "I'm bringing my favourite bow and sword, which I am well practised with and accustomed to using."

So maybe they did have four-cubit swords; it did not do them any good in the circumstances, but they had been expecting a different set of circumstances, namely that they follow or accompany scythed chariots in a victorious charge whcih breaks up the Pergamene cavalry and then rides down their supporting light infantry.  A  six-foot sword has considerable potential as a smiter of routing or simply disordered opponents, and saves on javelins, particularly if the launch platform is a bit bumpy.

Presumably care would have to be taken not to behead one's own camel.

I think we can assume that Arabs being more allied/mercenary would have been expected to fetch their own kit

[Patrick Waterson]

Presumably care would have to be taken not to behead one's own camel.

T.E. Lawrence once accidentally shot his camel in the head in a charge (the one dramatised in the film, but they missed that be out).

I think he gave up using a pistol from camelback after that; it was an accident waiting to happen.  At least when the camel dropped it threw him forwards and its body acted as a breakwater (breakherd?) which prevented him from being trampled by waves of successive riders.

I think we can assume that Arabs being more allied/mercenary would have been expected to fetch their own kit

That is what I would assume.

[Andreas Johansson]

I note, BTW, that Magister Militum sells  a pack of ten two handed swords designed to be used from a camel's back or by a very large man.

There's also one pose in their Bedouin Camel Riders code who seems to be wielding a very long sword, although the picture is not of the best quality.

[Erpingham]

I note, BTW, that Magister Militum sells  a pack of ten two handed swords designed to be used from a camel's back or by a very large man.

There's also one pose in their Bedouin Camel Riders code who seems to be wielding a very long sword, although the picture is not of the best quality.

The assumption by the sculpter seems to be it was swung one handed, a bit like a polo mallet perhaps?  Would it be used two-handed against cavalry?  Or just use the reach like a spear?  One wonders how effective it was, as later camelry seem to have been equipped with normal length swords.

[RichT]

Of course my levity in this matter should not obscure the great historical truth that Hellenistic subject, allied or mercenary forces usually supplied their own kit (though not always).

particularly if the launch platform is a bit bumpy.

Or humpy, in this case.

Concerning the camel longswords:

Livy 37.40: gladios tenues habentes longos quaterna cubita - "slender swords four cubits long"
Appian Syr 32: μαχαίραις ... ἐπιμήκεσι καὶ στεναῖς - machairas epimekesi kai stenais - "very long thin knives [swords]" 

If true does this suggest something more like a long rapier than a Medieval greatsword or longsword?